[top-politics] 20060706#parlement (parlement)

Log opened jeu jui 06 00:00:57 2006

04:57 < urgen> http://www.getdemocracy.com/about/
10:55 < echarp> hello hello
16:14 < urgen:#parlement> morning
16:14 ! Irssi: You are now talking in #parlement
16:14 < echarp> good afternoon urgen :)
16:15 < urgen> :-)
16:30 ! illegale (illegale) [n=illegale@m96.net81-66-133.noos.fr] has joined #parlement
16:30 < illegale> io
16:36 < urgen> hi
16:36 < urgen> sorry I don’t have a bot on your channel still illegale, been busy lately
16:36 < echarp> lo
16:39 < illegale> hey huys
16:39 < illegale> guys )
16:40 < illegale> no problem Urgen. If you get some time, Ill be glad to see it working, if not never mind :)
16:40 < illegale> charp,
16:40 < illegale> did not watch football again?
16:40 < urgen> hey illegale, what would you think about getting Steven Clift here in IRC?
16:41 < illegale> lol
16:41 < illegale> i am not sure in him though
16:41 < illegale> what you think?
16:41 < urgen> I think conversation helps
16:41 < illegale> thogh, my ability of noticing helpfull people around is debacle oriented :)
16:41 < urgen> but only if it really is conversation
16:41 < urgen> if it is just a one way story maybe too hard
16:41 < illegale> would you help it be conversation?
16:42 < urgen> he is asking me for help about IRC
16:42 < illegale> ok then :9
16:42 < illegale> he is you bitch in that way
16:42 < illegale> :-)
16:42 < urgen> :-)
16:42 < urgen> ya, well echarp
16:42 < illegale> he wants some e-democracy channel?
16:43 < urgen> is it ok to bring someone elses existing efforts to this channel or should I start another channel?
16:43 < echarp> I watched the match, for once :)
16:43 < illegale> echarp: finnaly¨
16:43 < urgen> yes, he wanted #e-democracy but we’ve found that someone else registered it already
16:43 < urgen> ah, so I did miss it
16:43 < urgen> rats
16:43 < echarp> you can of course bring him around here!
16:43 < echarp> he is most most welcome!!!
16:43 < illegale> that would be cool
16:43 < urgen> ok I’ll let him know
16:43 < echarp> I’m very open
16:44 < illegale> urgen: you in contact to him?
16:44 < echarp> if he is a girl and nice looking, all the better ;)
16:44 < urgen> I’ll be sure to get a wig for him
16:44 < illegale> echarp: he is not girl, but he might be good looking
16:44 < urgen> yes I asked him why #e-democracy was invite only
16:45 < urgen> and he emailed me back asking for help because he didn’t do that
16:45 < illegale> col
16:46 < illegale> cool
16:46 < illegale> :)
16:46 < echarp> I would have loved to name the parlement project using a cool sounding name, like e-vote, but it’s all taken already
16:47 < illegale> e-power
16:47 < illegale> check it out
16:47 < illegale> :)
16:47 < echarp> :)
16:48 < echarp> e-discussion-and-vote :)
16:48 < illegale> nah,
16:48 < illegale> short as possible
16:48 < echarp> yeap
16:48 < illegale> they say people can stand only two words at moest
16:48 < echarp> and one is of course better
16:48 < illegale> yes
16:48 < illegale> soundish one
16:48 < echarp> I choose parliament because it very much corresponds to the concept I envision
16:49 < echarp> e-parliament sounds silly
16:49 < illegale> i had simmilar envision
16:49 < illegale> forum
16:49 < echarp> so I just went for the french word :)
16:49 < echarp> forum yes
16:49 < illegale> it was taken of course
16:49 < illegale> then went for agora
16:49 < illegale> it was taken also
16:49 < echarp> agora is really cool yes
16:49 < illegale> now, i am for creation of new concepts we wuill create
16:50 < illegale> forum was not good in that way
16:50 < illegale> too many links i had to deny
16:50 < illegale> thats why i am lookng for fresh brend
16:50 < illegale> tradition, bye bye
16:50 < illegale> we are building new world stuff
16:50 < echarp> VeniVidiVoti sounds like a better name then? :)
16:50 < illegale> message i find cool
16:51 < illegale> lol
16:51 < illegale> www.vvv.org
16:51 < echarp> nah
16:51 < echarp> but I have http://vvv.sf.net
16:52 < illegale> heh
16:52 < echarp> and http://vvv.dyndns.org
16:52 < illegale> this is though stuff to be done
16:52 < illegale> i supposed top politics is fine
16:52 < illegale> urgen does not shatre that opinion
16:52 < illegale> maybe some lunatic linguist/copywriter could help
16:52 < echarp> that “top” is fine for a name?
16:52 < echarp> :)
16:53 < illegale> yes
16:53 < urgen> my opinion is that top should not call itself politics
16:53 < illegale> but?
16:53 < illegale> top itself?
16:53 < urgen> the principle
16:53 < illegale> top principle
16:53 < illegale> -
16:53 < urgen> it is a much larger tool much more valuable
16:53 < illegale> top economy
16:53 < illegale> stuff you aim at?
16:53 < echarp> Transparent Open Participative?
16:53 < urgen> sure it can help politics but you’ve got something if you polish it in the right way
16:54 < illegale> what way you see urgen?
16:54 < urgen> I’ll be right back, finish this email first
16:54 < illegale> echarp: totally open politics
16:54 < illegale> ;:)
16:54 < illegale> k
16:54 < echarp> :)
16:55 < echarp> I prefer participation/participative to politics, but it’s only my taste
16:55 < illegale> techbnical organsation practixe
16:55 < illegale> that part was public one
16:55 < echarp> you can be sure some one has already used it :)
16:55 < echarp> top is too tempting an acronym
16:55 < illegale> hmh
16:55 < illegale> lets chck
16:56 < illegale> google cant find it
16:56 < illegale> such as and
16:56 < illegale> too many stuf
16:56 < illegale> f
16:56 < illegale> suppose that is not perfect?
16:57 < illegale> we choosed Tiaktiv when was the time for choosing name organsation
16:57 < illegale> transparent interactive
16:57 < illegale> yet, some say it sounds as detergent
17:00 < urgen> maybe it is ;-)
17:00 < illegale> detergent=
17:00 < illegale> ?
17:00 < urgen> strong soap
17:00 < illegale> lol
17:00 < illegale> i like your conotation :)
17:02 < illegale> nevertheless, i am looking for new brand aslo
17:06 < urgen> oh no
17:06 < urgen> you asked prax here?
17:06 < urgen> :\
17:06 < urgen> that’s like asking the pope here
17:06 < urgen> he’s not going to talk democracy
17:07 < urgen> early efforts have to be cared for gently
17:08 < urgen> communism is prax’s religion. it is a dogma to him. no room for discussion.
17:08 < illegale> i have no problems with Prax
17:09 < urgen> you will
17:09 < urgen> :-)
17:09 < urgen> I’ve know him for years
17:09 < illegale> had many discussions with many rigid people
17:09 < illegale> very rigid people
17:09 < illegale> find them be great sorce for info
17:09 < urgen> well there are places for that kind of thing
17:10 < urgen> maybe as a test loop for after the basics get outlined a little better
17:10 < urgen> but early stages, loud strong stubborn ppl make it crash fast
17:10 < illegale> urgen: btw, is there any way you could help us with defining top at google.groups+’
17:10 < illegale> ?
17:10 < illegale> urgen: i am lound abnd sometimes pretty subborn also :)=
17:11 < urgen> I don’t feel the effort is mine. I appreciate what you shared so far
17:11 < urgen> ya but you talk
17:11 < illegale> urgen: thank you
17:12 < illegale> though, did you thought about joining discussion at groups?
17:12 < illegale> i find it be pretty though part
17:12 < urgen> I thought that I am stretched pretty thin these days
17:12 < illegale> asked for one known 7to me/ psychiatrist who is into this stuff also :)
17:12 < illegale> ok
17:13 < urgen> there are quite a few efforts going on right now, I want to watch them all
17:13 < illegale> urgen: it was up to me to ask, and up to you to answer :)
17:13 < urgen> sure
17:13 < illegale> what else is going on?
17:13 < urgen> I will start to make a list soon
17:13 < illegale> that would be pretty primary thing to do i suppose
17:14 < illegale> do you habve some prompt lines?
17:14 < illegale> btw, you into unitederdiversitysity y?
17:14 < illegale> now?
17:14 < urgen> here’s a google group I started: http://groups.google.com/group/Spiritual-Politics
17:15 < urgen> when Bush won and it appeared due to the influence of the christian right
17:15 < illegale> interesting
17:15 < illegale> who are the members?
17:15 < urgen> how to get a handle on managing value systems like that
17:15 < urgen> it has zero activity now
17:16 < urgen> everyone got depressed I think :-)
17:16 < illegale> i see
17:16 < urgen> just various ppl that I came across in IRC
17:16 < illegale> that is regular stuff
17:16 < illegale> ok
17:16 < urgen> it had an irc channel for a while too
17:16 < illegale> i suppose you are not watching at it right ow though :)=
17:17 < urgen> not, yes
17:17 < urgen> trimmed back to six networks and 16 channels :-)
17:18 < urgen> it gets hard to manage
17:18 < illegale> freenode is not only one?
17:19 < illegale> can you name them and say a little more about prosperous ones IYO?
17:20 < illegale> echarp: what is subscribing adress to top politcs?
17:20 < illegale> sorry for asking such dull question, need to be sure
17:21 < urgen> http://irc.netsplit.de/
17:21 < urgen> http://irc.netsplit.de/networks/top10graphs.php
17:21 < echarp> illegale: on google groups?
17:21 < echarp> or on parlement?
17:21 < illegale> echarp: yes
17:22 < illegale> google gorups
17:22 < echarp> http://groups.google.com/group/top-politics
17:22 < illegale> how to subscribe to it?
17:22 < urgen> freenode is #8 atm
17:22 < illegale> urgen: really?
17:23 < illegale> urgen: though what about quality?
17:23 < urgen> that’s always relative :-)
17:23 < urgen> freenode is a geek channel
17:23 < urgen> like oftc
17:24 < echarp> top-politics-subscribe@googlegroups.com
17:24 < illegale> ok, is there some channel pore politics orieneted but freenode?
17:24 < illegale> echarp: thank you
17:24 < echarp> you’re welcome
17:25 < urgen> http://irc.netsplit.de/channels/?num=0&query=democracy
17:26 < illegale> urgen: hmh, it does not help my interest much
17:27 < urgen> what doesn’t?
17:28 < urgen> there are a few IRC search engines these days too
17:29 < urgen> searchirc.com
17:29 < urgen> www.ircspy.com
17:29 < urgen> www.packetnews.com
17:29 < urgen> but you had better be careful thinking popular = power
17:30 < illegale> i understand that
17:30 < illegale> though, you mentioned 16 more channels
17:30 < illegale> and 2 more networks
17:31 < illegale> which ones they are?
17:31 < illegale> is there anything that might be interesting for us ?
17:31 < illegale> if it is prosperous to you, hmh, maybe some of us could notice it too?
17:33 < urgen> oh, you are just interviewing my interest?
17:34 < illegale> oh no
17:34 < illegale> if this stuff is simmilar to politics than i am interested also
17:35 < illegale> if you like this we might have simmilar brains to qualify quality of other issues in this field
17:35 < illegale> might not, but it should be checked out
17:35 < illegale> if you are into internet bissines stuff also i might be interested :)
17:37 < illegale> if you want to keep it for yourself, please take my apology for being rude and not taking this into consideration
17:38 < urgen> no my channels are usually not related to politics
17:38 < illegale> oh, ok.
17:38 < illegale> nevermind
17:39 < urgen> and not business other than systems administration and tech
17:39 < urgen> which is what I do
17:39 < illegale> echarp: search engine at google for top politics sets your site at 6th place
17:39 < illegale> urgen: you introduced me to esp which opened me new spehere
17:39 < illegale> that is pretty usefull info
17:39 < urgen> I wanted to get you out of #joiito
17:40 < illegale> hehe
17:40 < urgen> which was very not interested in what you had to say
17:40 < urgen> :-)
17:40 < urgen> but then #esp wasn’t either
17:40 < illegale> at esp there are some interesting people though
17:40 < urgen> but it created enough gravity to get me here
17:40 < urgen> before you were just banned and lost
17:41 < urgen> my interest is finding the places that have ‘silent conversations’
17:41 < urgen> places that allow the ppl in the back row a voice
17:41 < illegale> yes. though said to use net dynamcis only in stromy times
17:41 < urgen> no loud mouth central organization
17:42 < illegale> what i see is just info flow optimisation
17:42 < urgen> like taking a bicycle along the country side
17:42 < illegale> not to lound not to silent
17:42 < urgen> you miss too much in a fast car
17:42 < illegale> of course
17:42 < illegale> though fast cars have some advantages
17:42 < illegale> depends on what you are looking for in such moment
17:42 < urgen> depends on if you already know or not
17:42 < urgen> :-)
17:43 < illegale> hmh
17:43 < illegale> what i can notice is that i do not flow through info sphere
17:43 < illegale> not yet
17:43 < illegale> and i wish i was
17:44 < urgen> it has a history
17:44 < illegale> urgen: i see that info flow can be much better realised than it is right now
17:45 < illegale> right places, right people and stuff would help me much in keeping my energy for stuff that couild actually matter
17:45 < illegale> and when going through info buzz, people loose their energy and motivation
17:45 < illegale> that is what i see be the reason why so many people stay out of politics
17:45 < illegale> been young and stupid argumetn
17:46 < illegale> i had only two mentorsr (i might call them that name) in my politics pracite
17:47 < illegale> did many stuff for mine maturing process
17:47 < illegale> i suppose this network creation could help us all to mature and start to matter very much
17:47 < illegale> beside top politics issue
17:47 < urgen> ok
17:48 < urgen> there are engineers that had an open philosophy
17:48 < illegale> yeS*?
17:48 < urgen> it wasn’t political in any classic sense
17:48 < urgen> it was driven by necessity
17:48 < urgen> to work the design needed to be open
17:48 < illegale> i liike tkat
17:49 < urgen> they worked very hard on this
17:49 < urgen> lots and lots and lots of white papers and RFC’s
17:49 < urgen> the RFC system is a geek politics even, you study that?
17:49 < illegale> what are they working on?
17:49 < illegale> now, what is that?
17:51 < urgen> http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Request_for_Comments
17:52 < urgen> http://www.rfc-editor.org/rfc.html
17:53 < urgen> http://www.rfc-editor.org/rfc-index.html
17:53 < illegale> very interesting what i reas!
17:54 ! illegale [n=illegale@m96.net81-66-133.noos.fr] has quit [“Lost terminal”]
17:54 < urgen> so you see RFC is like geek statutes
17:54 < urgen> oh
17:55 ! illegale (illegale) [n=illegale@m96.net81-66-133.noos.fr] has joined #parlement
17:55 < illegale> ops
17:55 < illegale> here i am
17:55 < illegale> something happend
17:56 < illegale> so, this is pro transparency work?
17:56 < urgen> yep
17:56 < illegale> seems pretty cool
17:56 < illegale> in Tiaktiv we have our own based on reality methods
17:56 < illegale> this might help us a lot
17:56 < illegale> to take as standard of publshing
17:57 < illegale> is this standard based for creating coordination of work also?
17:58 < illegale> how many people work on these standards?
17:59 < illegale> urgen: how is that you are at "joiito?
18:00 < urgen> the whole of the internet community works on these
18:00 < urgen> but you’d better be able to speak technically to try
18:01 < urgen> joiito showed up after barcamp after foocamp
18:01 < urgen> foocamp is an event started by oreilly publishing to gather the smartest ppl of the online community and put them in the same room
18:01 < urgen> they also did presentations
18:01 < urgen> but it was invite only
18:02 < urgen> since invite only is not ‘open’ a number of ppl started barcamp as an alternative
18:02 < urgen> barcamp is anyone is welcome but everyone has to participate
18:02 < urgen> no spectators
18:02 < illegale> oreilly publishing, what is that?
18:02 < urgen> barcamp is starting to take off around the world
18:03 < illegale> is it only irc baseD?
18:03 < urgen> oreilly publishing does a large percentage of tech books
18:03 < illegale> so, people from barcam went to joiito?
18:03 < urgen> barcamp is a overnight multi-day event
18:03 < urgen> you camp out
18:04 < illegale> why?
18:04 < urgen> there is a lot of cross between joiito ppl and barcamp ppl
18:04 < urgen> why camp out?
18:04 < urgen> because it is also a party
18:04 < illegale> what sort’
18:04 < urgen> beer and pizza and tech
18:04 < illegale> ok
18:04 < illegale> i suppose it was not mentioned that way, yes?
18:04 < urgen> sure it is
18:05 < illegale> smrtest people and stuff ?
18:05 < illegale> though topics and stuff’
18:05 < urgen> http://barcamp.org/
18:05 < urgen> well,, naturally only the smartest ppl know about open source
18:05 < urgen> ;-)
18:05 < illegale> sure
18:05 < illegale> :-P
18:05 < illegale> Mensa woodoo
18:06 < illegale> I am smart, therefor i am
18:06 < illegale> :-
18:06 < urgen> so you should start a barcamp
18:06 < illegale> ok,ok
18:07 < illegale> what tech they use for anging around?
18:07 < urgen> http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Foobar
18:07 < urgen> foo and bar are geek inside jokes
18:07 < urgen> everyone is donation
18:07 < urgen> ppl bring what they need, laptops, wireless, projectors
18:07 < illegale> I see they are city insetad of topic orieneted
18:07 < illegale> how is that’
18:07 < urgen> we often get video streams of the events
18:08 < urgen> all topics are open
18:08 < urgen> you know something you go and present it
18:08 < urgen> that’s how it works
18:08 < urgen> ppl in IRC can attend that way
18:08 < urgen> we watch the video and ask questions
18:08 < illegale> just irc?
18:08 < illegale> what about forums?
18:08 < urgen> wiki
18:08 < illegale> no forums?
18:08 < illegale> no groups?
18:09 < urgen> forums are so old fashioned
18:09 < illegale> no big mails and stuff?
18:09 < urgen> mail is slow
18:09 < urgen> this is a very high pace exchange
18:09 < urgen> some mail during organization I’m sure
18:09 < illegale> hmhm
18:09 < urgen> you know how to connect or you don’t go
18:09 < urgen> seating is limited
18:09 < illegale> i can notice communities grow on forums
18:09 < illegale> suppose it is not that bad
18:10 < illegale> big communites i mean
18:10 < illegale> not 20 people, but big ones
18:10 < illegale> 10 000 people
18:10 < illegale> relevant ones
18:10 < urgen> like myspace
18:10 < illegale> that is why i can not say forums are not good
18:10 < urgen> millions
18:10 < illegale> do not know for my space
18:10 < urgen> :-)
18:10 < urgen> myspace is currently #1 popular
18:11 < illegale> link?
18:11 < urgen> myspace.com
18:11 < illegale> :)
18:11 < urgen> from the geek point of view…. it sux big time
18:11 < urgen> almost worse than AOL
18:11 < illegale> sort of
18:12 < illegale> i do not like whjat is see
18:12 < illegale> forums in croatia are bigger
18:12 < illegale> did you check out communiation part of echarp and me from yesterdays
18:12 < illegale> where echarp was talking abvout this software stuff’
18:13 < urgen> Rupert Murdock owns myspace
18:13 < urgen> big interest media tries to look hip
18:13 < urgen> not open
18:14 < urgen> I’m starting to understand echarp’s software perspective
18:14 < illegale> yeS?:)
18:14 < urgen> so far so good. I’ll have to create a design template
18:14 < illegale> i have some faith it that
18:14 < illegale> you remember my last visit to joiito?
18:15 < illegale> when i asked him is he interested?
18:15 < urgen> it comes across as very naive
18:15 < urgen> not sure you mean it that way
18:15 < urgen> but that’s mostly why you get refused
18:15 < illegale> nah, i am fine with that :)
18:16 < urgen> you say that things that are ancient history on the internet
18:16 < illegale> what excatly?
18:16 < urgen> ppl look at you funny and stop listening
18:16 < urgen> you read RFC yet?
18:16 < illegale> i lurked through it
18:16 < urgen> the whole history of the internet is in RFC
18:16 < illegale> should take some time to anaylise it
18:17 < urgen> all the key players
18:17 < urgen> all the key ideas
18:17 < urgen> how ideas evolve
18:17 < urgen> what physical limits they discover
18:17 < urgen> this shapes open source, not politics
18:17 < urgen> politics kills open source
18:17 < urgen> that’s why no one wants to listen to you
18:18 < urgen> there is quite a bit of politics in open source and maybe they would like some help managing that in a more efficient way
18:18 < urgen> but this is a large challenge that takes lots of special touch
18:19 < urgen> not accusations and demands
18:19 < illegale> whats wrong with accusastion?
18:19 < urgen> accusation is fine from someone who has the scars
18:19 < urgen> otherwise it is hot air
18:19 < illegale> ok
18:20 < urgen> so it has a history
18:20 < urgen> it is easy to tell the people who know the history from those who don’t
18:20 < illegale> i do not like history too much
18:20 < urgen> really easy
18:21 < illegale> it gives false ceratinty to thow who know it
18:21 < urgen> history is no different than transparency
18:21 < illegale> it is just recognision way
18:21 < illegale> have some better ways to handle it
18:21 < urgen> only if there is no science involved
18:22 < urgen> you keep trying to layer politics on this
18:22 < urgen> technology has some politics, yes, especially with large industry players
18:22 < urgen> but you can’t vote gravity to stop
18:22 < urgen> no matter how many people agree
18:22 < illegale> its not about agreement, but will
18:22 < urgen> that’s the history I talk about
18:23 < urgen> the one that doesn’t change whether you agree or not
18:23 < urgen> what works
18:23 < illegale> history is just commonly accepted context i can see
18:23 < illegale> i aproach through different one
18:23 < urgen> and so no one listens
18:23 < urgen> you are out of culture
18:23 < illegale> yes
18:23 < urgen> geeks see through that like glass
18:23 < urgen> stop listening
18:24 < urgen> remove the science
18:24 < urgen> remove the evidence
18:24 < urgen> and you don’t have an audience anymore
18:24 < illegale> the problem is i need a new history
18:24 < illegale> as long as this is paradigmatical cchange what i can notice
18:25 < illegale> i suppose you wont agree to that
18:25 < illegale> but that is how i feel
18:25 < urgen> so the test is to run how long?
18:25 < urgen> what will the evidence look like?
18:25 < urgen> how will you know?
18:25 < illegale> eviednce? while i am not at dead end i keep rolling
18:26 < illegale> and i dee no dead end in front of me
18:26 < illegale> we passsed by many in the meantime of course
18:26 < urgen> I am not distracted by many
18:26 < illegale> though, now buridan?
18:26 < urgen> buridan works hard for what he sees
18:26 < illegale> his history does not enable too look clearly at any cocnetp
18:27 < urgen> clarity and concepts are mutually exclusive
18:27 < illegale> that is not just his problem (imo), but of any one who is attached to his own hisotry
18:27 < illegale> i do not think so
18:27 < urgen> so what is the test?
18:27 < illegale> what test?
18:27 < urgen> how long will this test run?
18:27 < urgen> what will show?
18:27 < illegale> test on what?
18:27 < urgen> on your opinion about clarity vs concept
18:28 < illegale> seems i do not understand meaning of word clartiy or concept
18:28 < urgen> there has to be a way to show this
18:28 < urgen> geeks only know test
18:28 < urgen> you have no test, you have no audience
18:29 < illegale> what echarp does with parlement could be one step forward in geek attention
18:29 < urgen> real world or nothing
18:29 < illegale> of course
18:29 < urgen> echarps uses lots of test
18:29 < illegale> though, politics what i do in RL is far from autopoiesis stuff
18:29 < urgen> you show test you get attention
18:29 < urgen> simple
18:29 < urgen> talk is deadly
18:30 < illegale> here comes the problem
18:30 < illegale> politicians do talk
18:30 < illegale> sharing ideas and stuff
18:30 < urgen> and they kill technology at the same time
18:30 < illegale> if it is not of use to them
18:30 < urgen> butter only shows up on one side of the bread
18:31 < illegale> what does it mean?
18:31 < urgen> um goose and golden egg
18:31 < illegale> ok
18:31 < urgen> politicans rely on what they reject
18:31 < urgen> bad form
18:31 < illegale> uh, have to go eat
18:31 < urgen> I have to go to work
18:32 < urgen> :-)
18:32 < illegale> ok
18:32 < urgen> laterz
18:32 < illegale> later
18:32 < illegale> :)
18:32 < illegale> echarp: cu!
18:32 ! illegale [n=illegale@m96.net81-66-133.noos.fr] has quit [“Lost terminal”]
18:41 < echarp> ok, going home
23:25 ! Irssi: You are now talking in #parlement
23:25 < echarp> bonne nuit - Log closed ven jui 07 00:00:57 2006

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