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-M: Then there would be a wrongness of logic.If so, where? I don’t remember seeing a case.
mG: You don’t remember me crushing your so called logic?Like: Statement from MG: RD leads to Hitler or at least corrupt leadership.Marks comment: No! the Lemmings do, not RD. L-RD., Not my RD.But DD leads to lemminghood.I have proof of that from the trial ofSokrates. Do you call that logic? I have commented on why the trial of Sokrates not can be taken as a proof of Leminghood in relation to DD but you never challenged that.
-M: I remember numerous points that you have not responded to.
-M: I have presented numerous historical examples, and a researchexample. Where are the counter-points?
mG: Do you never read my answers? Have a look on my (and others)answers!-M: I am more responsive than you are. Look at the response trees. I have more dead-ends than anyone else.
-M: But again, WHO are the real specialists?With your lemming-algorithm, people can be duped into selecting afuck-head.
mG: […]“WHO” are the specialist I’m reffering to? WHO are the specialsist andagitators of the scientific world? Do you want names? Or do you understand how the scientific world works? In a truly open scientific world, none is “selected”, all have to gain legimiticy from their earlier work.-M: How is this legitimacy measured? PageRank of SD2-S is a way.
mG: But even a highly respected specialist can always be challenged by aman on the street if the calims are facts, not possible to ignore.Like: today there is 40 deg C outside, says the scientist. A man in thestreet can then go: Are you insane, today we have full winter and -40deg C! Nothing stops this challenge and we know who will win that debate inthe middle of the winter.
-M: Yes, and with SD2-S, such a man on the street is likely to increase
in rank.
Again, SD2-S is the system you are seeking.
mG: Of course most of the times things are not so clear but the principle isthe same anyone having a different opinion can raise it and that worksas a guarantee from misrule by specialsts using their fine ranks andtitles.
-M: Which is why SD2-S is democratic.
mG: Without openness, there cannot be an opne debate, with access to ALLspecialists. You want to stop this by proxy everything down to the choosen ones,opening up for corruption.
-M: Again, your AD, being DD and RD, has a power hierarchy with atleastthe administrative structure. Your system has ‘choosen ones’ just likeSD2-S, and SD2-S also has openness, so you aren’t making a comparison.The only difference is that that with SD2-S, the top administratorsaren’t chosen with the lemming algorithm, so it is less corruptablethan AD.
mG: You are not adressing the need for fully open debate.You wan’t a proxy system giving possibilities for an elite to ignorefacts. If all of the top ranked ignore the same facts due to groupthinking or stupidity, there can be stagnation and corruption.Seen today.-M: No, those who have the appearance of entrenchment will loose rank. And yes, specialists can descend into group-think,
mG: If the debate is more of WHO than on WHAT, like today, SD2 will onlyconserve even if there are some improvements compared to waht you callL-RD. AD by contrast is turning the focus to WHAT which you undervaluatesince you think that everything will be optimal if only the right WHOare in charge. I see above that and realize that there is no optimal leader, onlyoptimal solutions (WHAT’S).
-M: Humans are behavior generation systems – and there is nothing in policy that isn’t implimented by humans. This is why choosing the best humans for collective action is the panecea for achieving collective goals.
-M: You are advocating peer-endorsement instead of lemming-endorsement.Again you make a case for SD2-S.
mG: Explain?-M: Your L-RD and DD make selections based on popularity. By contrast, SD2-S uses PageRank, which is a peer-endorsement algorithm.
mG: Did they use SD2?
-M: Yes, something similar.Medical doctors have used an algorithm called ‘eigenvector prestige’to measure the rank of specialists within their fields since the1950’s. This was the inspiration for PageRank.And PageRank was the inspiration for SD2-S.
mG: Maybe, but did you hear one doctor claiming that they want to removethe open scientific world by eigenvector prestige?-M: Did I ever say that I wanted to close science and statecraft? NO! Both science and statecraft should have open exchange of ideas, but for democratic decisionmaking, a c-algorithm is mandated.
-M: No, authoritative knowledge is the dictator’s worst enemy,and how is this going to be found without a peer-review structure?Simple direct voting is not strong enough for peer review.
mG: What are you talking about?-M: Meaning that populistic voting is exactly that, it is populistic where the lemmings can be duped with emotional arguments and ones that pander to ignorance.
mG: -Might work, but noone have enough skills to decide everything or toallways pick the best specialist to support him.
-M: With SD2-S, its always collaboration.
mG: -Where is your proof of that?-M: It has democratic inputs, with a minimum number of inputs for decisions.
-M: BS, leaps occured because the “whos” were better selected.Again, you make a case for SD2-S.
mG: Examples?-M: Top scientists were more peer-selected than church selected. SD2-S has peer-selection, which is what you want, but you fuck-up by using the lemming-algorithm instead of a peer-selection algorithm.
shanti
Mark, Seattle WA USA
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Like: Statement from MG: RD leads to Hitler or at least corrupt leadership.Marks comment: No! the Lemmings do, not RD. L-RD., Not my RD.But DD leads to lemminghood.I have proof of that from the trial ofSokrates. Do you call that logic? I have commented on why the trial of Sokrates not can be taken as a proof of Leminghood in relation to DD but you never challenged that.
-M: I remember numerous points that you have not responded to.
-Huh? Tell me one and answer the one above!
You know perfectly well that I have been very responsive and answered
almost all so called arguments coming from you.
If there was a vote on that I’m 100% sure of winning it.
-M: I am more responsive than you are.
Look at the response trees. I have more dead-ends than anyone else.
-O my….and my dad has a bigger car than yours,….
How old are you, Mark?
And how can the only conclusion for your enormous number of dead-ends
be that you won them?
There might be another reason too and I leave it to you to figure out.
-M: How is this legitimacy measured? (in the scientific world)
PageRank of SD2-S is a way.
-The open scientific gives different possibilities to build reputation, but in the base, there is always facts and well grounded conclusions. Exact measures och legimitacy is not needed because the focus are on issues, not individuals like you refuse to understand. Pagerank is not used the way you want there, bacuse it could draw focus to indivduals rather than issues in the science.
Like: today there is 40 deg C outside, says the scientist. A man in thestreet can then go: Are you insane, today we have full winter and -40deg C! Nothing stops this challenge and we know who will win that debate inthe middle of the winter.
-M: Yes, and with SD2-S, such a man on the street is likely to increase
in rank. Again, SD2-S is the system you are seeking.
-Sometimes the man doesn’t care about his rank, he just want to put
things right, quickly.
So where is the value of high rank to him? He might be of no interest
of being a scientist or even working with wheater issues.
The value to mankind is that the faulty scientist can be questioned and
his conclusions too, nomatter what rank he has or will have tomorrow.
mG: Of course most of the times things are not so clear but the principle isthe same anyone having a different opinion can raise it and that worksas a guarantee from misrule by specialsts using their fine ranks andtitles.
-M: Which is why SD2-S is democratic.
-Do you call that a logic answer, supporting your ideas? I rest my case.
mG: You are not adressing the need for fully open debate.You wan’t a proxy system giving possibilities for an elite to ignorefacts. If all of the top ranked ignore the same facts due to groupthinking or stupidity, there can be stagnation and corruption.Seen today.
-M: No, those who have the appearance of entrenchment will loose rank.
And yes, specialists can descend into group-think,
which is one reason why SD2-S has generalists to maintain a devil’s
advocacy,
and other counter-entrenchment processes.
-You agree on that specialists can decend to goup thinking, but
generalists?
Welcome to the politacal world! Today folked by generalist all over the
place, not doing much more than group thinking!
This is the key problem with raising up individuals over arguments,
this is your problem.
And SD2 might help, but not fully, explained by me and others several
times.
-M: Humans are behavior generation systems – and there is nothing in
policy that isn’t implimented by humans. This is why choosing the best humans for collective action is the panecea for achieving collective goals.
-Wrong again, software is what drives the world, not hardware. Rethink.
Again you make a case for SD2-S.mG: Explain?-M: You are advocating peer-endorsement instead of lemming-endorsement.
-M: Your L-RD and DD make selections based on popularity. By contrast, SD2-S uses PageRank, which is a peer-endorsement algorithm.
-No, DD makes selections on facts (is the bridge on the best place, how can we solve this environmental problem etc) even if the can be biased by emotions, to vote on a person who should solve everything in order to give him higher rank is definately a popularity action though. Again, where is your logic?
-M: Did I ever say that I wanted to close science and statecraft? NO!
Both science and statecraft should have open exchange of ideas, but for democratic decisionmaking, a c-algorithm is mandated.
-Why?
-M: Meaning that populistic voting is exactly that, it is populistic
where the lemmings can be duped with emotional arguments and ones that
pander to ignorance.
This is why the DD and L-RD of your AD is not appropriate for
peer-review.
By contrast, PageRank is a peer-review algorithm.
-Mumbo-jumbo, what do you mean?
mG: -Where is your proof of that?-M: With SD2-S, its always collaboration.
-M: It has democratic inputs, with a minimum number of inputs for decisions.
-Minimum? Why and why is it a guarantee for collaboration for the best
solution?
Collaboration , yes, but what if all top-ranked are corrupt and know
each other, conserving their power?
Again, you make a case for SD2-S.mG: Examples?-M: BS, leaps occured because the “whos” were better selected.
-M: Top scientists were more peer-selected than church selected. SD2-S has peer-selection, which is what you want, but you fuck-up by using the lemming-algorithm instead of a peer-selection algorithm.
-Yes but many achievements have been made by non-appointed scientists
starting with almost nothing.
Did you ever heard of the chief of the american patent office in the
end of 1800:s?
This appointed idiot looked forward to a calm carrer since “everything
is always invented” more or less.
To use your own words, SD2 selections can fuck up development.
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MG wrote:
Like: Statement from MG: RD leads to Hitler or at least corrupt leadership.Marks comment: No! the Lemmings do, not RD. L-RD., Not my RD.But DD leads to lemminghood.I have proof of that from the trial ofSokrates. Do you call that logic? I have commented on why the trial of Sokrates not can be taken as a proof of Leminghood in relation to DD but you never challenged that.
-M: I remember numerous points that you have not responded to.
mG: -Huh? Tell me one and answer the one above!-M: I don’t quite remember, but I do think that I responded to you.
mG: You know perfectly well that I have been very responsive and answeredalmost all so called arguments coming from you. If there was a vote on that I’m 100% sure of winning it.
-M: You are one of the more responsive ones, but you still have dodged.
-M: I am more responsive than you are.Look at the response trees. I have more dead-ends than anyone else.
mG: O my….and my dad has a bigger car than yours,….How old are you, Mark?-M: Old enough to be an American President – 35.
mG: And how can the only conclusion for your enormous number of dead-endsbe that you won them?
-M: The rule structures of debate.
Not meeting the burden of rejoinder is indicative that the other has
won.
How else should it work?
mG: There might be another reason too and I leave it to you to figure out.
-M: The only conclusion is that they fucked-up.
-M: How is this legitimacy measured? (in the scientific world)PageRank of SD2-S is a way.
mG: The open scientific gives different possibilities to build reputation,but in the base, there is always facts and well grounded conclusions.Exact measures och legimitacy is not needed because the focus are onissues, not individuals like you refuse to understand.Pagerank is not used the way you want there, bacuse it could draw focusto indivduals rather than issues in the science.-M: Let there be issues – it is people’s response to these issues that is the way to evaluate peers. And I understand that there are more than issues.
Like: today there is 40 deg C outside, says the scientist. A man in thestreet can then go: Are you insane, today we have full winter and -40deg C! Nothing stops this challenge and we know who will win that debate inthe middle of the winter.
-M: Yes, and with SD2-S, such a man on the street is likely to increasein rank. Again, SD2-S is the system you are seeking.
mG: Sometimes the man doesn’t care about his rank, he just want to putthings right, quickly. So where is the value of high rank to him? He might be of no interestof being a scientist or even working with wheater issues.The value to mankind is that the faulty scientist can be questioned andhis conclusions too, nomatter what rank he has or will have tomorrow.-M: Fine – this is why SD2-S has open participation.
mG: Of course most of the times things are not so clear but the principle isthe same anyone having a different opinion can raise it and that worksas a guarantee from misrule by specialsts using their fine ranks andtitles.
-M: Which is why SD2-S is democratic.
mG: Do you call that a logic answer, supporting your ideas? I rest mycase.-M: Where was your attack on my ideas? SD2-S is open, so that anyone can challenge ranked specialists.
mG: You are not adressing the need for fully open debate.You wan’t a proxy system giving possibilities for an elite to ignorefacts. If all of the top ranked ignore the same facts due to groupthinking or stupidity, there can be stagnation and corruption.Seen today.
-M: No, those who have the appearance of entrenchment will loose rank.And yes, specialists can descend into group-think,which is one reason why SD2-S has generalists to maintain a devil’sadvocacy, and other counter-entrenchment processes.
mG: You agree on that specialists can decend to goup thinking, butgeneralists?-M: I’d say that ranked generalists would be the least group-thought prone.
mG: Welcome to the politacal world! Today folked [fucked?]by generalist all over theplace, not doing much more than group thinking! This is the key problem with raising up individuals over arguments,…
-M: Doink! Its not individuals vs arguments, its individuals-and-arguments vs. arguments.
mG:… this is your problem. And SD2 might help, but not fully, explained by me and others several times.
-M: SD2-S uses people as the quality filters - this requires them to be ranked.
-M: Humans are behavior generation systems – and there is nothing inpolicy that isn’t implimented by humans.This is why choosing the best humans for collective action is thepanecea for achieving collective goals.
mG:-M: You want software without the hardware. :(Wrong again, software is what drives the world, not hardware.Rethink.
Again you make a case for SD2-S.mG: Explain?-M: You are advocating peer-endorsement instead of lemming-endorsement.
-M: Your L-RD and DD make selections based on popularity.By contrast, SD2-S uses PageRank, which is a peer-endorsementalgorithm.
mG: -No, DD makes selections on facts (is the bridge on the best place, howcan we solve this environmental problem etc) even if the can be biasedby emotions, to vote on a person who should solve everything in orderto give him higher rank is definately a popularity action though.Again, where is your logic?-M: The measure of people’s positions on these issues - AD uses the lemming-algorithm.
-M: Did I ever say that I wanted to close science and statecraft? NO!Both science and statecraft should have open exchange of ideas,but for democratic decisionmaking, a c-algorithm is mandated.
-Why?-M: C-algorithms are the ONLY way to measure peoples positions on issues.
-M: Meaning that populistic voting is exactly that, it is populisticwhere the lemmings can be duped with emotional arguments and ones thatpander to ignorance.This is why the DD and L-RD of your AD is not appropriate forpeer-review.By contrast, PageRank is a peer-review algorithm.
mG: -Mumbo-jumbo, what do you mean?-M: It has accumulative voting toward expert opinion.
shanti
Mark, Seattle WA USA
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mG: -Huh? Tell me one and answer the one above!
-M: I don’t quite remember, but I do think that I responded to you.
-It’s all in the forum. I can still not see any answer on the last question,
-M: You are one of the more responsive ones, but you still have dodged.
-You mean: not agreed on what you say is logic. I have no problem with that since I have showed you several times that not all from you is logical.
-M: Let there be issues – it is people’s response to these issues that
is the way to evaluate peers. And I understand that there are more than
issues.
You seem to be for issues only while I am for issues and people.
-No, it is you who wants to make issues> issues + leaders. This is the
great error of your logic. And doing so takes focus from the issues
which are all corrupt leaders best tool. A structured way of working
with issues which eliminates the arbitrary bias that always comes with
personal aspects will lift the worst burden mankind ever had.
Your logic is: issues + leaders is better than issues + leaders.
Prooven wrong by history because leaders by RD is tested now for
several hundreds years with known results.
Mine is: Issues + leaders can be worse than issues.
And mine is not prooven wrong by history.
The value to mankind is that the faulty scientist can be questioned andhis conclusions too, nomatter what rank he has or will have tomorrow.
-M: Fine – this is why SD2-S has open participation.-Dont try to leave the discussion easy, The parallell was that the scientific world is a better way of working with issues than the election of reps.doring the same job. Participation is not the same as being on the same level. Participating citizen can always be ignored, the examples are many. You are self advocating numerous ways of filtering the words of public by the top ranked. (Because the will not stand the words of the lemmings)
-M: Where was your attack on my ideas? SD2-S is open, so that anyone can challenge ranked specialists.mG: Do you call that a logic answer, supporting your ideas? I rest mycase.
-Only if he is interested in gaining rank. Many are not. They are just interested in one isse at the time. Which speaks for issues rather than individuals.
mG: You agree on that specialists can decend to goup thinking, butgeneralists?
-M: I’d say that ranked generalists would be the least group-thought
prone.
-Maybe so but still a big problem, not adressed by SD2.
mG: Welcome to the politacal world! Today folked [fucked?]by generalist all over theplace, not doing much more than group thinking! This is the key problem with raising up individuals over arguments,…
-M: Doink! Its not individuals vs arguments,
its individuals-and-arguments vs. arguments.
-Still an unlogical answer, the problem is group thinking, coming from personal pleasure of beeing part of a group.
-M: SD2-S uses people as the quality filters -
this requires them to be ranked.
-And people (including reps) are arbitray. Wrong things can be filtered by arbitrary reasons against an individual or because of individual arbitrary reasons by the rep. AD adressed this. SD2 not. The bottom line is really: What is worst, that single issues gets arbitrary filtered away due to mass-phycoses or whatever you might refer to as lemminghood among the citizens, or, that whole areas or many ideas gets filtered away by a rep. just because they come from wrong originator or some personal causes never made public?
M: You want software without the hardware. :(
-Yes, if the hardware is broken or corrupt and can be bypassed.
-M: The measure of people’s positions on these issues -
AD uses the lemming-algorithm.
By contrast, when SD2-S measures of people’s positions on issues,
PageRank is used, which gives accumulative voting toward expert
opinion.
This is quality filtering.
-You mean that selecting reps having certain positions in a debate is quality filtering? I call it hardware quality filtering without all facts known for the hardware.
-M: C-algorithms are the ONLY way to measure peoples positions on
issues. This is why I made the c-algorithm the main focus since day one.
-It is time to go to the bottom with this. What do you mean
centrality-algo?
Why is SD2 an C-algo and AD not?
By contrast, PageRank is a peer-review algorithm.mG: -Mumbo-jumbo, what do you mean?
-M: It has accumulative voting toward expert opinion.-I’d call it accumulative voting toward experts. How their opinion is excercised is a different story.
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[…]
By contrast, PageRank is a peer-review algorithm.
mG: -Mumbo-jumbo, what do you mean?-M: It finds expert opinion by following endorsement chains to the convergence of expertese.
mG: -Where is your proof of that?-M: With SD2-S, its always collaboration.
-M: It has democratic inputs, with a minimum number of inputs fordecisions.
mG: Minimum? Why and why is it a guarantee for collaboration for the bestsolution?-M: Its not a guarantee, but it still is collaborative.
mG: Collaboration , yes, but what if all top-ranked are corrupt and knoweach other, conserving their power?
-M: That creates what Brad deGraff calls a ‘circle jerk’. Such a circle still needs broad support to be highly ranked, or else is is just largely ignored by PageRank.
Again, you make a case for SD2-S.mG: Examples?-M: BS, leaps occured because the “whos” were better selected.
-M: Top scientists were more peer-selected than church selected.SD2-S has peer-selection, which is what you want, but you fuck-up byusing the lemming-algorithm instead of a peer-selection algorithm.
mG: -Yes but many achievements have been made by non-appointed scientistsstarting with almost nothing. Did you ever heard of the chief of the american patent office in theend of 1800:s? This appointed idiot looked forward to a calm carrer since “everythingis always invented” more or less.-M: Yes, I have heard of this.
mG: To use your own words, SD2 selections can fuck up development.
-M: SD2-S is not an appointment based system, so your criticism doesn’t apply.
shanti
Mark, Seattle WA USA
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