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At 05:29 PM 9/13/2006, Mark wrote:
-M: My definition of religion and related words irks many people:-faith: Primarily, an attitude toward belief felt to be secure, throughacceptance and sufficiency for action.-worldview: a comprehensive conception or apprehension of the world-religion: a faith-based worldview.This would be “Diyn” as used in the Qur’an, commonly translated as “religion.” However, religion, as used by most people, refers to a body of belief and practice that “binds” people together, hence the etymology.
So? I’m not sure what it means to be “Abrahamic.” Many Muslims would immediately assume that, if you say that your religion is Shaivism, you therefore worship something other than God, which, of course, would make you a mushrik, usually translated as polytheist, but really means “one who makes shares, something that shares power [with God].” Whether or not this would be true of you would depend on details that you have not revealed, nor am I asking…. I do not make the assumption I described, and, indeed, that assumption is frequently incorrect. From the Sanskrit, “truth is one, it is known by different names, but all the enlightened agree….”L: Good. You have just agreed with something, agreement withwhich, with one further detail, would define you legally as a Muslim.-M: Me, a Muslim?:1. I have a Koran2. I enjoy reading it3. I like Muhammad4. I love God dearly5. I am protective of Muslims6. But I am not Abrahamic7. My chosen religion is Shaivism
I am a worshipper of siddhas(perfected masters), people who haveachieved spiritual perfection (moksha) through spiritual practice.We are fond of the Muslim-Sufi poet-saint Rumi.
Rumi was not a mushrik. That is, he worshipped none but God. There is ambiguity aplenty in the term “worship,” within it lurks substantial danger, and this was a familiar topic for our friend.
M: OK, I am a believer.And we both seem to be lovers of God. :)
Or seek to be. Easy, not.
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-M: My definition of religion and related words irks many people:-faith: Primarily, an attitude toward belief felt to be secure, throughacceptance and sufficiency for action.-worldview: a comprehensive conception or apprehension of the world-religion: a faith-based worldview.
L: This would be “Diyn” as used in the Qur’an, commonly translated as"religion." However, religion, as used by most people, refers to abody of belief and practice that “binds” people together, hence the etymology.
-M: I would call that ‘organized religion’.
L: Good. You have just agreed with something, agreement withwhich, with one further detail, would define you legally as a Muslim.-M: Me, a Muslim?:1. I have a Koran2. I enjoy reading it3. I like Muhammad4. I love God dearly5. I am protective of Muslims6. But I am not Abrahamic7. My chosen religion is Shaivism
L: So? I’m not sure what it means to be “Abrahamic.”-M: Someone who venerates the line of phrophets which extend from Abraham.
L: Many Muslims would immediately assume that, if you say that your religion is Shaivism,you therefore worship something other than God, which, of course,would make you a mushrik, usually translated as polytheist, butreally means “one who makes shares, something that shares power [withGod].” Whether or not this would be true of you would depend ondetails that you have not revealed, nor am I asking…. I do not makethe assumption I described, and, indeed, that assumption isfrequently incorrect. From the Sanskrit, “truth is one, it is knownby different names, but all the enlightened agree….”
-M: Our Shiva is the same as “God” and “Allah”.
I am a monotheist. The other dieties are just personifications of
aspects of one Godhead.
And your quote there is considered authoritative in my tradition.
I am a worshipper of siddhas(perfected masters), people who haveachieved spiritual perfection (moksha) through spiritual practice.We are fond of the Muslim-Sufi poet-saint Rumi.
L: Rumi was not a mushrik. That is, he worshipped none but God. There isambiguity aplenty in the term “worship,” within it lurks substantialdanger, and this was a familiar topic for our friend.
-M: OK. I have not studied this matter in detail.
-M: OK, I am a believer.And we both seem to be lovers of God. :-)
Or seek to be. Easy, not.
M: OK. :)
shanti
Mark, Seattle WA USA
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At 04:53 PM 9/14/2006, Mark wrote:
“Venerates?” That smacks of worship…. “Respects” does not.L: So? I’m not sure what it means to be “Abrahamic.”-M: Someone who venerates the line of phrophets which extend fromAbraham.
This includes Jews, Christians, Muslims(and maybe even Bahaii).They largely differ over where this line stops.
Indeed. Christians and Jews-and-Muslims — the latter being quite close — have differing definitions of prophethood. The Baha’i introduce a whole new concept which is in my opinion alien to Islam, but not so alien to Christianity. (The Baha’i consider the Prophets to be the “Manifestation” of God, which gets very close to the Christian concept of the Incarnation. Jesus himself, of course, was a Jew, and quite a good one at that.)
But, again, this has to do with TOP?
There is a connection, but it is getting pretty thin. The connection is my claim that people can come to agreement much more than is often thought, if they can take the time and have the space in which to examine what they believe deeply, rather than merely noting surface appearances and differences.
-M: Our Shiva is the same as “God” and “Allah”.I am a monotheist. The other dieties are just personifications ofaspects of one Godhead.And your quote there is considered authoritative in my tradition.
It ought to be. That’s where I got it (or, more accurately, from the synthetic Vedanta tradition, the Sanskrit begins “ekam sat vipra bahudra vedanti sarvam khalvidam buddham tat tvam asi….” If I remember it correctly.)
But I could also state it from my personal experience. Truth is one. People call it various names. But all agree [where the conditions permit it]….
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L: So? I’m not sure what it means to be “Abrahamic.”-M: Someone who venerates the line of phrophets which extend fromAbraham.
L: “Venerates?” That smacks of worship…. “Respects” does not.-M: ‘Respect’, in the context of religious authority, I would call ‘veneration’.
This includes Jews, Christians, Muslims(and maybe even Bahaii).They largely differ over where this line stops.
L: Indeed. Christians and Jews-and-Muslims — the latter being quiteclose — have differing definitions of prophethood. The Baha’iintroduce a whole new concept which is in my opinion alien to Islam,but not so alien to Christianity. (The Baha’i consider the Prophetsto be the “Manifestation” of God, which gets very close to theChristian concept of the Incarnation. Jesus himself, of course, was aJew, and quite a good one at that.) But, again, this has to do with TOP?
-M: We are nailing down our worldviews – this enhances communication.
L: There is a connection, but it is getting pretty thin. The connectionis my claim that people can come to agreement much more than is oftenthought, if they can take the time and have the space in which toexamine what they believe deeply, rather than merely noting surfaceappearances and differences.-M: Our Shiva is the same as “God” and “Allah”.I am a monotheist. The other dieties are just personifications ofaspects of one Godhead. And your quote there is considered authoritative in my tradition.
L: It ought to be. That’s where I got it (or, more accurately, from thesynthetic Vedanta tradition,…
-M: My tradition is based more on Trika Shaivism than Vedanta, but there are much more similarities than not. (Laksman Joo cataloged only five significant differences.)
L: the Sanskrit begins “ekam sat vipra bahudra vedanti sarvam khalvidam buddham tat tvam asi….” If I remember it correctly.)
M: Fun stuff, eh? :)
L: But I could also state it from my personal experience. Truth is one.People call it various names. But all agree [where the conditionspermit it]….
M: :)
shanti
Mark, Seattle WA USA
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